Gallows Humour, Grief, and Grandma’s Zingers
I met Lina Karlsen while I was stuck waiting for my suitcase Gertrude to catch up with me in Tromsø, Norway. Turns out a delayed bag led to one of the best conversations of my trip so far. Lina is a social worker who grew up steeped in Sami culture, and her approach to laughter can teach us all the lessons of the value of humour in hard places. Her stories will make you think, laugh, wince, and maybe call your grandmother.
In This Episode
- Meet Lina Karlsen, a Sami social worker with a gift for perfectly timed dark humour
- Hear why northern Norway’s gallows humour does not always land in the south of the country
- Get the real story behind a snowboard joke that made a grieving friend laugh
- See how one family uses gentle teasing to keep a grandmother with Alzheimer’s part of the fun
- Find out what happens when a joke about inheritance money completely bombs
- Compare notes on humour across Norway and Canada, including a bus story starring Marla’s husband Michel
- Play along with the Laughter Revolution Lightning Round as you hear Lina’s fast, funny answers
Timestamps
- [00:10] — Marla kicks off the “on the road” series from Copenhagen and introduces Lina – where the heck IS Guovdageaidnu?
- [02:43] — What role does laughter plays in Lina’s life?
- [03:48] — Lina explains northern Norway’s dark humour and why it does not always land in the south
- [06:46] — Lina talks about humour in her Sami community
- [07:22] — The snowboard story: a tale of dark humour going right
- [09:45] — Marla’s own dark humour story – the dead mother card
- [10:12] — How Lina’s family uses laughter to keep her grandmother with Alzheimer’s in on the fun
- [12:15] — The grandmother’s affair scare, and how humour worked when nothing else did
- [14:22] — Why does laughter work as a intentional tool?
- [15:00] — Humour gone wrong – how do you fix it?
- [17:06] — Recipe for humour – finding laughter in a new language
- [20:19] — How to find that uncontrollable laughter – trust is the “golden ticket”
- [27:26] — Marla introduces Laughter Intelligence™ and tells a tale of laughter in Turkey
- [28:44] — Lessons on laughter for managers from The Office?
- [30:30] — The Laughter Revolution Lightning Round begins
Links and Resources Mentioned
Laughter IntelligenceTM Self-Assessment
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Gertrude and I would love to have you along for the ride.
Full Transcript
Marla Simlett: Welcome to Laughter Revolution. I’m your host, Marla Simlett, and this podcast I’ve built on the simple idea that while life can be heavy, getting through it doesn’t always have to be, because laughter.
Now, today’s episode is the next in my series of the on the road interviews that I’m doing, where laughter, learning, and luggage collide. I’m currently in Copenhagen, Denmark, but I just spent three weeks in Norway, a beautiful part of the world where my guest hails from. And if you haven’t been there, just go, ’cause it’s wonderful.
And while I was there in Tromsø, the Paris of the North, I was fortunate enough to meet today’s guest, Lina Karlsen, who is the daughter of my Airbnb host there. Lina and I had lots of time to chat on my first morning as I was waiting for Gertrude to finish her solo adventure. Yes, Gertrude, I’m talking to you. She finally made it, but the time that we had together turned into one of those opportunities or those hidden gems that I talk about that arise when your plans get disrupted and something else has to happen.
Lina and I had a great conversation that morning about places and people and culture, so I look forward to continuing to pick her brain, your brain Lina, about laughter and life in Norway.
So thanks so much for being with me today and agreeing to come on the podcast.
Lina Karlsen: Thanks for having me.
Marla Simlett: So can you start by telling me, telling us just a little bit about yourself?
Lina Karlsen: I am 40 years old. I’m a social worker. I grew up just outside of Tromsø. Maybe we’ll get back to my beautiful home place, as you also fell in love with it. I currently live in Guovdageaidnu, in the municipality of Finnmark. I moved there a couple of years ago to study Sami language.
Marla Simlett: And where is that? If I was looking at a map of Norway, where is that location?
Lina Karlsen: It is east of Tromsø, and a little bit south. Actually, people think it’s north of Tromsø, but it isn’t. It’s a little bit south of Tromsø. But it’s in the inland, so it borders to Finland.
Marla Simlett: Nice. Okay. I’m gonna ask you some questions, but we’ll also just kinda chatter and chat. So Laughter Revolution, I’m all about the laughter and humor, and it’s more than that for me. It’s the positivity that that brings into your life. And I wanna know what role laughter plays in your life.
Lina Karlsen: I think for me and all of my family at least, and I think for the people of northern Norway, historically life has been pretty tough. It’s both for the Norwegian people and the Sami people who I belong to. There’s been a struggle of finding a way to live through weather, finding food, those sorts of things.
And even now it is a little bit of a struggle getting our voices heard in the governing city of the south. So I think laughter for us is a tool. It’s very much dark humor up here, and it doesn’t always land well in the south. So there are definitely some cultural differences, and I think humor is a big part of that.
Marla Simlett: What would be an example of… Did you say stark or dark?
Lina Karlsen: Dark. Dark.
Marla Simlett: So have you got an example of the dark humor that you might hear in the north?
Lina Karlsen: Not at the top of my head, but in general it’s more of, “If you can cry about it, then you should rather laugh about it.” So crack a joke. It’ll feel better. In my opinion, the people of the south don’t always… They don’t get offended necessarily, but they don’t understand. So it’s very much of a shocking, “Can you joke about a matter like this?”
Marla Simlett: Right. And I’ll just add, I know you have experience of that ’cause you lived in Oslo for a number of years, which is down in the south. It’s like that gallows humor, right? Laughing at things that might seem like a tragedy or might seem horrific, but it’s a way to help cope and a way to help deal with it, and some people don’t understand that or feel offended by it.
Lina Karlsen: I do think some people feel offended by it, but in my opinion, my generation doesn’t necessarily get offended. It’s more shocking. That they’re shocked that it is possible—more of a, “Oh wow, how could you?”
Marla Simlett: Do you think that at all opens people’s minds up to using humor in that way, as a coping mechanism, using it intentionally to help deal with heavy things?
Lina Karlsen: I hope so. In my opinion, as a social worker too, I think the resilience of humor is an untapped source of resilience. It’s building your capacity, being able to laugh.
Marla Simlett: You’re speaking my language. And I know, just to mention your mom, I’m gonna pronounce her name properly, Merette?
Lina Karlsen: Close enough—Merette.
Marla Simlett: Merette. It’s beautiful. I have such a hard time wrapping my head around Norwegian. I’m not sure why. Just you working in social work, and I know she works in palliative care, and she and I had a conversation. She’s got a wonderful sense of humor as well. She and I had a conversation just about how you have to have the laughter to help you cope with it yourself, or also helping the people that you’re helping cope.
Lina Karlsen: Right. You can be in a shitty situation, and the situation will be shitty anyway. You might as well laugh about it. That will better it.
Marla Simlett: Yes. So is there a difference, then, when you’re speaking about kind of the northern Norwegian or the Sami kind of sense of humor or laughter, or is it kind of one in the same, influenced by each other?
Lina Karlsen: In a way it is influenced by each other. It’s really hard to draw a line, of course, because I grew up Sami, but I grew up in a place that is different from the Sami place where I’m now living. So there are cultural differences within the culture as well, of course. But I would say that at least for the Sami people of my home place, it is very much so.
Marla Simlett: Still that kind of dark humour. What would make you laugh? What makes you laugh every time?
Lina Karlsen: I have an example. It is really dark. For example, in the Sami community, we have a lot of suicides, unfortunately. More than in the average population of Norway. One of my friends lost her brother this year. That is, of course, the worst situation that a person can be in. A couple of months after it happened, our friend group went on a trip. She was contemplating buying a new snowboard and she was like, “But I don’t really need it.” And then her best friend said, “Come on, your brother killed himself. You deserve it.” And then we all laughed.
I think that’s a good example of a joke that has to be precisely timed and come from the right person, because that’s a joke that wouldn’t work in any sort of relationship. But because it comes from her best friend, and it’s well-placed—sort of a treat yourself, your brother killed himself, come on. For many people, it would not land, and many people would be like, “Oh wow, that’s not funny.” But in the right relationship, at the right time, it’s beautiful.
Marla Simlett: When you said that, I do a lot of energy work, and I can feel the release that would come from that—the laughter that would come up, which helps release some of that grief and that energy.
Lina Karlsen: Totally.
Marla Simlett: I had a similar thing after my mom died. My brother got stopped by the cops. He was driving home from the hospice or the nursing home after she died, got stopped by the cops for speeding, and he told the story the next day. He was like, “And I played the dead mother card.” Why wouldn’t you?
Lina Karlsen: I mean, it’s there.
Marla Simlett: Exactly. Are there people in your life that make you laugh?
Lina Karlsen: As a family, we laugh together. My grandmother has Alzheimer’s, so she has a hard time remembering, and that is a tragic situation. But that is also an example where my family has just chosen to banter a bit about it and kind of tease her about it, and she laughs as well.
I think that is a way for us, at the right times—of course we don’t laugh at her—to build a sense of community around her where she feels that she participates still. A lot of her ability to communicate has been affected, so a lot of the times when we’re together, she’s just sitting quietly, observing and listening, because I don’t think that she necessarily knows how to participate anymore. And then we can tease her a little bit, and then we laugh together, and she participates in the laughing. So that is a beautiful example of how laughter can build community and make sure that everyone’s still participating.
Marla Simlett: That was a word that was coming up: beautiful. What a beautiful way to keep that connection with your grandmother, and also within building that community of family and not having her be left out or feel like she’s already gone.
Lina Karlsen: I did come up now with a concrete example; it’s sort of sad, but beautiful. She spends a couple of weeks every six weeks at a retirement home because she is starting to deteriorate in a way that is really tiring for my grandfather. So he sort of needs a break.
Marla Simlett: And they’re in their late 80s, right?
Lina Karlsen: They’re 87 and 88. My grandfather is 88, and he has all of his wits, but it’s very tiresome for him to have to care for her 24/7. And also now that she’s started to go out wandering in the night and those sorts of things. So she has two weeks on “holiday,” we call it.
Marla Simlett: On vacation.
Lina Karlsen: But this last time, she got the idea that he divorced her. She panicked and was saying, “He’s gonna leave me. He’s found somebody else. I know that he’s with her. That’s why I’m here. He’s placed me here so that he can have his affair, and then he’s gonna leave me.” And then my mom was like, “Dad is not that smart. Come on. He’s not smart enough to have an affair behind your back.”
Marla Simlett: I love it.
Lina Karlsen: Up until this point, we had tried everything. We had tried orienting her towards reality, like, “You’re both almost 90. It’s not…” And she wouldn’t have any of it. But then when my mom was like, “Come on, he’s not smart enough,” my grandmother was like, “You know, I think you’re right.” And then we all laughed about it.
Marla Simlett: Oh, that’s great! I love all these examples you’re giving and using laughter as a tool. You’ve also identified key pieces of when it’s appropriate, when it’s not, and the reason why it works. Sometimes people believe laughter’s just a happy accident. The work that I do is all about bringing it in intentionally because it can be such a tool, and I love these examples that you’re giving showing how you’re using that in your family and in your life.
Lina Karlsen: But I also have examples of it not landing well. When we’re talking about death and laughter, a close friend that I had in Oslo, his father was really sick for many years and was close to dying a couple of times. We were talking about buying apartments—this is in our mid-20s, when you’re trying to get settled and finding out where you’re gonna live. He was worried about his financial situation, and I was like, “You have nothing to worry about. Your father’s gonna die. You’re gonna inherit.”
For me, that is the exact same thing as my friend did when we were on the trip, saying, “Treat yourself, your brother killed himself.” But it didn’t land at all. All the people in the room were like, “Oh, how could you say that?” I ended up having to apologize to my friend because he thought I was being rude. I explained, and he was like, “Yeah, okay, I understand. It’s like a cultural thing.” But that was 100% me trying to create a release both for the financial worries and because his father was really sick at the time. But that is an example of it being different.
Marla Simlett: It’s interesting how culturally, even in different parts of the same country, right? We have that in Canada: the difference between Vancouver on the west coast, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia on the east coast, and central Canada. The humor can land a little bit different. What do you think the funniest thing is about you?
Lina Karlsen: I have actually thought a lot about this because I’ve learned a new language the last few years. In learning a new language, I really felt that I couldn’t be myself. I struggled a lot with getting my personality through in Sámi. I felt like people didn’t really get to know me. A level of that is for everyone learning a new language, but for me, it is very much linked to humor because I think I’m quippy. I have a comment on everything; my mind works really fast in that way.
People can say something, and then I will just shoot in a comment, and people will laugh. I’ve always been able to make people laugh like that. So I think that my comedic timing is in the center of my humor, and being able to tie things together. If we’re having a conversation at a party, I can do the thing stand-up comedians do—I can bring back a comment from before.
Marla Simlett: A callback.
Lina Karlsen: Yeah, a callback. So I do that a lot, and I’m happy to say that I am now able to do that in Sámi as well! But I was super frustrated at first because it didn’t go fast enough for that, and a few minutes later I’d be like, “Damn, that would’ve been a great joke.”
Marla Simlett: And there are some points where it’s just too late to bring it back.
Lina Karlsen: Yeah, it is.
Marla Simlett: I’ve actually heard that you know you have mastered a language when you can be funny in that language because there are so many nuances to it. So a little clap for you—you have mastered the Sámi language!
I think that’s why you and I hit it off so well, ’cause that’s the type of humor that I have, too. When my husband and I have parties, I like to be in the background because I get overwhelmed being in the middle of it. So I’ll be in the kitchen doing the dishes, but I’ll be listening. We call it “Marla’s comments from the peanut gallery,” ’cause I’ll throw some comment in and always manage to make people laugh.
It’s such a gift we have when we can do that, especially somebody like you who has such an awareness of the power behind it. For you to be able to lighten a mood, to build community, to support the people around you using humor—which is such a non-threatening tool—it’s a gift that you give.
Lina Karlsen: Thank you. I really do think so. Working as a social worker—both as a therapist and doing on-site prevention work—if all the kids are hanging at the mall, you’ll be around, just hanging around. You need that humor to build relationships, because it’s a way of building trust as well. That’s sort of your way in. It’s a golden ticket, being able to have a common land and people laughing. They know that you’re a person that they can turn to as well.
Marla Simlett: That’s a huge piece. I did a lot of research when I was starting to build my business as a professional speaker speaking about laughter, and trust is one of the biggest things that laughter does. Laughter is with us for a reason, and they think the biggest piece was the social bonding and the trust that it builds.
So why would you not use that intentionally to help in those areas, right? When you add to that the knowledge of when it’s gonna land, when it’s not, and when it’s appropriate, there’s a real nuance to it. I actually have a registered trademark, “Laughter Intelligence,” and it speaks to building your laughter intelligence so that you can use it intentionally to bring all the benefits to your life and other people. If you took my Laughter Intelligence self-assessment, you’d probably be right up there!
Tell me about the last time you laughed so hard that you either couldn’t stop, spit tea out of your nose, peed a little bit, or maybe snorted.
Lina Karlsen: It was just something stupid with my cousin, Hanna, when we were on a road trip. When you spend a lot of time together, you get internal jokes. I threw a callback to an internal joke out there when we were in a group with the rest of the family. She found it so funny that she laughed so hard and said, “This is just too stupid,” and then she got me going as well.
Marla Simlett: I love that. What has to happen for you to laugh like that with somebody—that uncontrollable laughter that you cannot stop?
Lina Karlsen: We’ve talked about trust, and you need to trust the other person. You need to feel completely at ease, comfortable, not self-conscious. That sort of laugh is preserved just for the relationships where we feel most comfortable. ‘Cause it’s a really unfiltered version of you that comes out.
Marla Simlett: I love that: unfiltered version. Because laughing, like crying, isn’t always pretty.
Lina Karlsen: It’s impossible to do that if you’re self-conscious. Imagine being on a date—you would never!
Marla Simlett: It’d probably be the only date you have! And if not, then you know you’re in the right place. For me, a laugh like that is like a really good book that you can’t put down. I search for it, and when I can find it, it’s the number one thing. It doesn’t come very often, so I never take it for granted when it does come.
Lina Karlsen: Growing up, especially my teenage years, I had a lot of those with my friends. But as an adult, they are fewer.
Marla Simlett: Do you think because we’re more self-conscious?
Lina Karlsen: Some of us probably are because of the roles we have taken on. There are definitely some situations where I know that I’m more self-conscious now than I was as a young person. We as adults tend to take things more seriously.
And I laugh a lot about language situations. With my friends who have Sami as their mother tongue, we’ve had a lot of humor with me saying things wrong or pronouncing things so that there are misunderstandings. In those situations, I’ve thought about how lucky I am as an adult to be able to challenge myself in a way that very few grown-ups are challenged. It’s uncomfortable to challenge yourself in that way and be vulnerable.
Maybe that is the link: that kind of laughter, being able to not be self-conscious in a very grown-up, serious way, is linked to vulnerability. You need to be open to that to get those experiences.
Marla Simlett: That makes me think of when my husband and I were traveling in Turkey. We ended up on the wrong bus, and we were trying to explain to the bus driver and some guys standing around what was happening. You could tell they were like, “These stupid tourists.” We heard the word turismo, and my husband, Michel, turned around and went, “Yes, we’re so stupid,” and they laughed. Then they were much more amenable to helping us! They helped us get on the right bus and gave us a cellphone with one of their friends in that town to help us out. It was just that moment of him showing, “I can be vulnerable. Here’s a laugh, let’s build that trust.”
Lina Karlsen: Which is great. Maybe that is it with dark humor, too, because you are taking a risk. You’re going out on a limb, seeing if it will land, and there’s always a risk that it won’t. So maybe vulnerability really is the key.
Marla Simlett: When you were talking about it not landing with your friend in Oslo, the important piece of that was the recovery, right?
Lina Karlsen: Yes, of course.
Marla Simlett: I speak sometimes to managers about how you bring humor into the workplace, and many managers are so afraid to try because what if it doesn’t land right? It is about that repair, and that builds trust, too, when people see that you were vulnerable, made a mistake, understood your mistake, and repaired it.
Lina Karlsen: That’s really interesting. I’m not gonna turn this into a podcast about the series The Office, but I really like the main character there. He’s really obnoxious and terrible, right? He does a lot of humor that doesn’t land. I read somewhere that the creators were really worried about viewers hating Michael, the boss. But the show wouldn’t have been successful without the character Michael, and the key there is the vulnerability. Even though he says horrific things and would be an HR nightmare in real life, you understand that it comes from a good place, and he does good repair work.
Marla Simlett: Using humor and making it work. I love that.
All right, I’m aware of our time, so I would like to move into the Laughter Revolution lightning round, if that’s okay. This is a series of quick questions that I’m asking all my guests. Answer quickly—one word or two words off the top of your head.
Laughter is cheaper than?
Lina Karlsen: Therapy.
Marla Simlett: True fact.
Lina Karlsen: I felt I’m not really allowed to say that, being a therapist myself, but it is.
Marla Simlett: I’m a therapist, too, and a client of therapy, and laughter’s certainly cheaper.
Second one: You know you need to laugh when…
Lina Karlsen: You wanna cry.
Marla Simlett: Yes. Perfect.
The most inappropriate place you’ve ever had the giggles was…
Lina Karlsen: In a funeral.
Marla Simlett: You’re the second person to say that! That seems to be a common thing.
Lina Karlsen: But also interesting that we can laugh in a funeral, right?
Marla Simlett: A lot of celebrations of life now start by saying, “Please laugh, because that’s what this person would’ve wanted.” I want people laughing at my funeral. If I knew ahead of time, I’d probably record a comedy bit and play it just to make sure! But there is some impropriety sometimes that seems to come up.
What’s one thing guaranteed to make you laugh every single time?
Lina Karlsen: If someone stumbles or falls, but has humor about it themselves. That is the key part—I won’t just laugh at someone falling, but if they have humour about it.
Marla Simlett: One of my favourite stories is another speaker who was on stage, got so excited talking that he walked off the front of the stage and landed on the ground. Then, with the microphone, he said, “I’m now taking questions from the floor.”
Lina Karlsen: That’s great!
Marla Simlett: I’ll try to keep that in mind if I ever fall off the stage.
A day without laughter feels like?
Lina Karlsen: It feels gray.
Marla Simlett: Gray. I try to never have a day without laughter. Yesterday I was walking and was tired and worn out from traveling. At one point, I could feel myself getting grumpy, so taking my own advice, I just started to giggle to clear that energy off.
Which leads me into my final question: I talk about the IGG, which is your Internal Giggle Generator, based on the idea that you don’t need something to make you laugh if you can make yourself laugh. So I want you to give me your signature giggle in three, two, one…
Lina Karlsen: (Giggles)
Marla Simlett: That’s very cute! I love that giggle.
Thanks so much for being here, Lina. This was such a great conversation, and your perspective, insight, and wisdom on the topic was a delight. I’m glad you could be here.
Lina Karlsen: Thank you for having me, and I’m glad you had a great time at my home place.
Marla Simlett: Yes, I did!
So that’s it for us on this episode of Laughter Revolution. If you enjoyed it and know that you want more, please hit subscribe, and feel free to pass the link on to any of your friends or anyone else you think may enjoy some giggly growth in their life.
You can follow my Laughter Revolution Digest on my website at marlasimlett.com, especially if you want more updates on my trip, what I’m learning, and some pictures.
Again, I would love to hear from you. Where are you getting stuck? What did you think of this episode? What’s made you giggle or laugh out loud lately? Share your questions, stories, photos, and videos with me on Instagram or via email at [email protected].
Thanks again, Lina, for being here. I’m Marla Simlett. This was Laughter Revolution. And until next time, remember: laugh more, be well, and become your greatest you.
